1
00:00:49,412 --> 00:00:52,482
♪♪ Theme music playing...
2
00:00:52,539 --> 00:00:56,107
♪♪
3
00:00:56,164 --> 00:00:59,732
♪♪
4
00:02:05,434 --> 00:02:09,747
♪♪
*MINDHUNTER*
Season 01 Episode 10
Title: "Episode #1.10"
5
00:02:36,874 --> 00:02:38,359
Got another one.
6
00:02:40,545 --> 00:02:42,238
"Wish you were here."
7
00:02:45,591 --> 00:02:48,162
"Dear Holden, it's been some time
since we've seen each other,
8
00:02:48,239 --> 00:02:52,355
and while the memory of your voice
has faded, what we discussed has not.
9
00:02:52,432 --> 00:02:54,210
I've had more insights into my behavior,
10
00:02:54,287 --> 00:02:57,213
which I'd like to share with you
at your earliest convenience.
11
00:02:57,290 --> 00:02:58,959
Warmest regards, Ed Kemper."
12
00:02:59,029 --> 00:03:00,451
Ed Kemper writes you?
13
00:03:00,517 --> 00:03:02,421
If OPR decides to pay a site visit...
14
00:03:02,587 --> 00:03:03,985
Fuck 'em.
15
00:03:06,738 --> 00:03:09,330
- Bill Tench.
- Bill, Detective Chambers.
16
00:03:09,407 --> 00:03:13,102
- Hey, Gordon, how's it going down there?
- You're not gonna be happy.
17
00:03:13,244 --> 00:03:14,585
Okay.
18
00:03:14,662 --> 00:03:16,837
I had Devier come in,
suggested a polygraph.
19
00:03:16,914 --> 00:03:19,382
I wanted to see his reaction,
and he agreed to it.
20
00:03:19,459 --> 00:03:21,362
- You polygraphed him?
- That's right.
21
00:03:21,439 --> 00:03:22,551
And he passed.
22
00:03:22,628 --> 00:03:24,303
- Inconclusive.
- Shit.
23
00:03:24,380 --> 00:03:25,908
We don't get that result too often.
24
00:03:25,985 --> 00:03:28,182
Because it only occurs
six percent of the time.
25
00:03:28,259 --> 00:03:30,685
It usually has to do
with how the questions are worded.
26
00:03:30,762 --> 00:03:32,874
- Lab found Lisa's blood on the rock.
- Inconclusive.
27
00:03:32,951 --> 00:03:34,897
Devier, he'd cleaned the car.
28
00:03:34,974 --> 00:03:37,316
- And so, no physical evidence.
- That's right.
29
00:03:37,393 --> 00:03:38,921
Think that's bad, the inconclusive?
30
00:03:38,998 --> 00:03:42,508
Definitely won't put him away with it.
Worst case scenario, he's exonerated.
31
00:03:42,585 --> 00:03:44,467
- Can you hold a moment?
- Sure.
32
00:03:45,276 --> 00:03:47,055
- You get that?
- They've got nothing on him?
33
00:03:47,132 --> 00:03:48,890
He was happy to take the polygraph.
34
00:03:48,967 --> 00:03:51,307
Now he'll be cockier than ever.
35
00:03:51,792 --> 00:03:53,847
- See if he'll talk to us.
- There's no way.
36
00:03:53,909 --> 00:03:54,945
Ask him.
37
00:03:55,003 --> 00:03:57,815
How convinced are we that he's guilty?
What percentage convinced?
38
00:03:57,892 --> 00:03:59,317
- Hundred percent.
- I'm about 70.
39
00:03:59,394 --> 00:04:02,987
It is no accident that this tree trimmer
was accused of rape in another county.
40
00:04:03,064 --> 00:04:04,280
He'd have to be Mirandized.
41
00:04:04,357 --> 00:04:06,991
It's a death penalty state.
There's nothing in it for him.
42
00:04:07,068 --> 00:04:10,743
He is a narcissist.
Might just do it to prove that he can.
43
00:04:12,386 --> 00:04:15,581
Have Chambers extend an invitation.
44
00:04:19,685 --> 00:04:21,378
- Hey, Gordon?
- Yeah.
45
00:04:21,521 --> 00:04:23,005
Here's an idea.
46
00:04:25,191 --> 00:04:27,259
Can you bring in Devier later?
47
00:04:27,336 --> 00:04:28,659
Sure. Tonight?
48
00:04:28,736 --> 00:04:31,395
6:00, 7:00 p.m.
Casual, a little evening chat.
49
00:04:31,453 --> 00:04:33,590
Assure him he's not under arrest,
but it's important,
50
00:04:33,648 --> 00:04:35,332
the FBI wants to talk to him.
51
00:04:35,409 --> 00:04:37,418
We're doing this after-hours
to be more casual?
52
00:04:37,495 --> 00:04:40,233
Make it seem that way.
He'll be tired, he'll let down his guard.
53
00:04:40,310 --> 00:04:43,817
Then he'll realize we're working overtime.
We mean business.
54
00:04:45,086 --> 00:04:47,782
Once he gets to the station,
let him wait before we talk to him.
55
00:04:47,859 --> 00:04:50,032
- Okay.
- At least an hour.
56
00:04:50,341 --> 00:04:51,430
That's supposed to...
57
00:04:51,487 --> 00:04:53,579
You ever wait for test results
in a doctor's office?
58
00:04:53,656 --> 00:04:55,998
We need to create in him
a visceral memory.
59
00:04:56,075 --> 00:04:58,584
We need to elicit
a physiological response.
60
00:04:58,661 --> 00:05:00,593
- We need a shoe.
- A shoe?
61
00:05:00,656 --> 00:05:01,692
Ah.
62
00:05:01,769 --> 00:05:03,548
Something we used
to crack another sociopath.
63
00:05:03,625 --> 00:05:06,131
We need to find the equivalent for Devier.
64
00:05:11,904 --> 00:05:15,266
- Show me everything you got on Devier.
- Brass.
65
00:05:18,035 --> 00:05:19,668
- This is it?
- That's it.
66
00:05:19,745 --> 00:05:22,775
Okay, I need a lot more.
Several of these folders, make them thick.
67
00:05:22,852 --> 00:05:25,424
Go to the copier.
Use blank pages if you need to.
68
00:05:25,501 --> 00:05:27,778
I want it to look
like Manhattan Yellow Pages.
69
00:05:28,588 --> 00:05:30,948
- Evidence room?
- This way.
70
00:05:36,012 --> 00:05:38,580
What have we here?
71
00:05:43,269 --> 00:05:47,381
This is great. This is perfect.
Where's her baton? Her twirling baton?
72
00:05:49,066 --> 00:05:51,677
- She didn't have that on her.
- Okay.
73
00:05:53,905 --> 00:05:56,265
Take all of this to the interview room.
74
00:05:56,407 --> 00:05:57,807
Yes, sir.
75
00:05:57,950 --> 00:06:00,062
You have anything
from where the body was found?
76
00:06:00,139 --> 00:06:02,479
Just on that shelf, the one below.
77
00:06:09,670 --> 00:06:11,071
Well, all right.
78
00:06:13,257 --> 00:06:16,245
- Is there a five and dime around here?
- Right off the square.
79
00:06:16,322 --> 00:06:19,311
Get a baton, fine if it's cheap.
Remove the price tag.
80
00:06:19,388 --> 00:06:20,917
- Drag it around in the dirt.
- Okay.
81
00:06:20,994 --> 00:06:24,462
I don't want him to see evidence.
I want him to see a sweet little girl.
82
00:06:24,539 --> 00:06:25,877
Hurry.
83
00:06:30,107 --> 00:06:31,928
Listen, when we get Devier in here,
84
00:06:32,005 --> 00:06:35,387
I'm gonna ask him questions
that may make you uncomfortable.
85
00:06:35,464 --> 00:06:39,516
Acing the polygraph just lowered
his blood pressure, so sit tight, okay?
86
00:06:39,951 --> 00:06:41,352
Sure.
87
00:06:43,955 --> 00:06:46,065
All this an FBI thing?
88
00:06:46,707 --> 00:06:50,069
It's, uh... his thing.
89
00:06:51,921 --> 00:06:54,865
We have Devier coming across the street.
90
00:07:06,477 --> 00:07:07,877
Devier.
91
00:07:09,105 --> 00:07:10,673
Come right through here.
92
00:07:25,121 --> 00:07:27,504
So I'm going to have you
wait down the hall here.
93
00:07:27,581 --> 00:07:30,069
Wait while the agents come in.
Bring back smokes or anything?
94
00:07:30,146 --> 00:07:32,361
- Yeah, that'd be great.
- All right.
95
00:07:32,500 --> 00:07:34,907
Don't know how much more
information I can provide,
96
00:07:34,984 --> 00:07:36,722
but I'll help any way I can.
97
00:07:36,799 --> 00:07:39,118
They just want to talk to you.
Through here.
98
00:07:53,024 --> 00:07:54,633
He's in there.
99
00:07:55,026 --> 00:07:57,910
Gene, hello.
I'm Special Agent Holden Ford.
100
00:07:57,987 --> 00:07:59,578
- Hi.
- Special Agent Bill Tench.
101
00:07:59,655 --> 00:08:01,956
- Hey.
- Detective Chambers, you guys have met.
102
00:08:02,033 --> 00:08:04,560
Thanks for doing this.
You've been Mirandized, right?
103
00:08:04,637 --> 00:08:06,001
- Again.
- Great.
104
00:08:06,078 --> 00:08:08,397
We're gonna do this
as quickly as possible.
105
00:08:08,539 --> 00:08:11,066
I'm sure you've got
better things to do tonight.
106
00:08:12,626 --> 00:08:15,386
Army life wasn't for me.
I'll admit that.
107
00:08:15,463 --> 00:08:18,909
Too regimented. Couldn't stand them
barking orders at me all the time.
108
00:08:18,986 --> 00:08:22,163
I like things more laid back, you know.
109
00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,497
Working outdoors, the fresh air.
110
00:08:25,765 --> 00:08:27,918
John, my boss,
he was great about hiring me,
111
00:08:27,995 --> 00:08:29,752
even with the discharge.
112
00:08:29,894 --> 00:08:33,591
It seemed like a perfect fit.
Out in the weather, working with my hands.
113
00:08:33,668 --> 00:08:35,092
Military's not for everyone.
114
00:08:35,169 --> 00:08:37,283
You can't know that before you go in.
115
00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:38,471
You went voluntarily?
116
00:08:38,548 --> 00:08:41,203
'Nam was pretty much over,
figured it'd be low-key.
117
00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:43,100
Looks like you've married
and divorced twice.
118
00:08:43,177 --> 00:08:45,582
What can I say?
I'm popular with the ladies.
119
00:08:45,659 --> 00:08:48,022
- Or unpopular.
- Depending on how you look at it.
120
00:08:48,099 --> 00:08:49,461
I made mistakes.
121
00:08:49,538 --> 00:08:51,463
Married my first girl when we were 16.
122
00:08:51,540 --> 00:08:53,319
Just after you dropped out of high school?
123
00:08:53,396 --> 00:08:55,509
- Yeah.
- Why'd you drop out?
124
00:08:55,586 --> 00:08:56,781
Trouble sitting still.
125
00:08:56,858 --> 00:08:58,783
School made me a little nuts, too.
126
00:08:58,860 --> 00:09:01,116
Wow, so you married your first girl.
127
00:09:01,550 --> 00:09:03,892
- Why'd you split up?
- We were fighting all the time.
128
00:09:03,969 --> 00:09:06,102
- What about your second wife?
- Same story.
129
00:09:06,159 --> 00:09:08,334
But you're living again
with your first ex-wife?
130
00:09:08,411 --> 00:09:11,734
Yeah. I know. I know. It's kind of...
131
00:09:11,811 --> 00:09:13,506
Same story? Still fighting?
132
00:09:13,583 --> 00:09:16,381
- Sometimes.
- But she's not 16 anymore.
133
00:09:16,458 --> 00:09:18,907
Nope. Oh, no.
134
00:09:18,984 --> 00:09:21,220
The bloom of youth has faded.
135
00:09:23,114 --> 00:09:25,559
You all got a lot of information on me.
136
00:09:25,636 --> 00:09:27,559
The FBI is thorough.
137
00:09:27,868 --> 00:09:30,813
Yeah, well, what am I,
some kind of gangster?
138
00:09:30,996 --> 00:09:32,481
Bureaucracy.
139
00:09:34,708 --> 00:09:37,822
Well, listen, I got to mosey
out of here soon, so if we could...
140
00:09:37,899 --> 00:09:39,655
Of course. Of course.
141
00:09:39,839 --> 00:09:41,305
Let's get down to business.
142
00:09:41,382 --> 00:09:43,265
You're really important to us, Gene.
143
00:09:43,342 --> 00:09:45,663
You were on Lisa's street
the week before she disappeared.
144
00:09:45,740 --> 00:09:48,497
You had a bird's-eye view
of the entire place.
145
00:09:48,639 --> 00:09:50,543
Yeah, but I mean, I didn't see nothing.
146
00:09:50,620 --> 00:09:53,254
You know, I was focused on them trees.
You got to be.
147
00:09:53,331 --> 00:09:56,880
- Especially when you're working the saw.
- Understood, but...
148
00:09:57,314 --> 00:09:59,883
we're kind of grasping at straws here.
149
00:09:59,984 --> 00:10:02,553
You're the closest thing we have
to an eyewitness.
150
00:10:03,654 --> 00:10:07,331
Well, I took your polygraph.
I'm an open book.
151
00:10:07,408 --> 00:10:08,808
Thank you.
152
00:10:10,244 --> 00:10:11,645
So...
153
00:10:12,329 --> 00:10:14,733
you must have seen Lisa
coming and going that week.
154
00:10:14,810 --> 00:10:16,131
Not really.
155
00:10:16,208 --> 00:10:18,527
- Maybe once or twice.
- Well...
156
00:10:19,003 --> 00:10:22,531
If she wore that outfit,
couldn't have missed her.
157
00:10:23,466 --> 00:10:27,601
Yeah. Oh, yeah, I guess I saw her
in that a couple of times.
158
00:10:27,678 --> 00:10:29,582
Feathered hat, silver baton?
159
00:10:29,659 --> 00:10:30,854
Uh... yeah.
160
00:10:30,931 --> 00:10:33,127
What time she catch the school bus
in the morning?
161
00:10:33,204 --> 00:10:35,754
Well, let's see, I'd get there about 7:00,
162
00:10:35,831 --> 00:10:38,674
she'd come out maybe half hour later.
163
00:10:38,751 --> 00:10:42,080
And what time did the bus
drop her back off?
164
00:10:42,166 --> 00:10:43,262
Oh, I can't say.
165
00:10:43,339 --> 00:10:46,912
Um, I mean, maybe 3:30, 4:00.
166
00:10:46,989 --> 00:10:49,310
Ever see her talk to anyone
when she got off the bus?
167
00:10:49,387 --> 00:10:50,541
No, sir.
168
00:10:50,618 --> 00:10:53,645
Anyone on her street who looked like
he didn't belong there?
169
00:10:53,722 --> 00:10:56,630
Not that I can recall, but, I mean...
170
00:10:56,707 --> 00:10:59,361
I wasn't even working
the week that she disappeared.
171
00:10:59,438 --> 00:11:00,776
Right.
172
00:11:02,213 --> 00:11:04,197
Oh, hold on, it almost ended.
173
00:11:08,969 --> 00:11:11,121
That's what she had on her that day.
174
00:11:16,018 --> 00:11:17,418
Heartbreaking.
175
00:11:18,896 --> 00:11:23,467
- By all accounts, she was a sweet kid.
- Yeah, she seemed real friendly.
176
00:11:24,068 --> 00:11:25,325
You noticed that?
177
00:11:25,402 --> 00:11:28,745
You know, just saw her playing in the yard
with her dog, you know.
178
00:11:28,822 --> 00:11:30,768
I mean, I guess you could say she was...
179
00:11:30,845 --> 00:11:32,749
- Precocious?
- Right.
180
00:11:32,826 --> 00:11:34,311
Did you ever talk to her?
181
00:11:34,703 --> 00:11:36,980
- No.
- She ever talk to you?
182
00:11:37,539 --> 00:11:40,067
- Waved a time or two.
- Hmm.
183
00:11:42,753 --> 00:11:46,907
- Was she a cheerleader?
- Majorette.
184
00:11:48,384 --> 00:11:50,827
Those girls on the dance team
are something else.
185
00:11:51,762 --> 00:11:53,830
I always had the hots for them.
186
00:11:54,765 --> 00:11:56,165
I mean...
187
00:11:58,477 --> 00:12:01,880
she looks pretty tasty in that outfit,
doesn't she?
188
00:12:04,316 --> 00:12:06,968
- Sure.
- It's very revealing.
189
00:12:07,569 --> 00:12:09,179
Yeah, I guess.
190
00:12:10,447 --> 00:12:11,847
Come on.
191
00:12:12,199 --> 00:12:13,850
You guys don't think so?
192
00:12:16,103 --> 00:12:17,230
I mean...
193
00:12:17,288 --> 00:12:20,401
- Definitely looks older than 12.
- See, that's what I thought.
194
00:12:20,478 --> 00:12:23,258
Okay. Thank you. So it's not just me?
195
00:12:23,335 --> 00:12:26,073
Well, these girls these days,
they're developing so early.
196
00:12:26,150 --> 00:12:27,488
Sure are.
197
00:12:28,549 --> 00:12:30,933
Of course, Lisa was in junior high.
198
00:12:31,010 --> 00:12:33,453
Whoever picked her up
might not have known that.
199
00:12:35,681 --> 00:12:38,023
I mean, I'm sitting here
wracking my brain,
200
00:12:38,100 --> 00:12:39,945
trying to remember if I saw someone, but...
201
00:12:40,003 --> 00:12:41,852
We believe he thought
she was older.
202
00:12:41,910 --> 00:12:43,590
She was friendly, probably came up to him.
203
00:12:43,709 --> 00:12:46,385
He thought if they got together,
it'd be consensual.
204
00:12:46,462 --> 00:12:50,429
Well, 14 is the age of consent.
205
00:12:50,571 --> 00:12:51,972
Is that right?
206
00:12:52,489 --> 00:12:53,889
Yeah.
207
00:12:54,033 --> 00:12:55,434
Wow.
208
00:12:57,578 --> 00:13:01,148
I guess Georgia's kind of forward-thinking
in that respect.
209
00:13:01,498 --> 00:13:03,966
I mean, by the time
a woman has hair on her pussy,
210
00:13:04,043 --> 00:13:06,987
you'd think she'd be able to decide
who gets a piece of it.
211
00:13:08,714 --> 00:13:11,932
I mean, yeah, man.
I never thought about it like that before,
212
00:13:12,009 --> 00:13:13,489
- but, yeah.
- But it's true.
213
00:13:13,552 --> 00:13:15,893
- Could make a case.
- Some women shave down there.
214
00:13:15,950 --> 00:13:17,333
- You ever see that?
- No.
215
00:13:18,027 --> 00:13:20,208
They look so young.
216
00:13:21,393 --> 00:13:23,610
- Have you seen it?
- No, but heard tell.
217
00:13:23,687 --> 00:13:26,508
- I tried to get my girlfriend to do it.
- You think she would?
218
00:13:26,585 --> 00:13:30,284
- She's considering.
- What did you even say to her?
219
00:13:30,361 --> 00:13:32,181
I told her, "Honey, this turns me on."
220
00:13:32,258 --> 00:13:35,891
- Just direct like that?
- Yeah, I don't know if she's gonna do it.
221
00:13:35,991 --> 00:13:39,936
Women have their own minds these days,
but it sure would be hot,
222
00:13:40,454 --> 00:13:41,855
don't you think?
223
00:13:42,873 --> 00:13:43,880
Sure.
224
00:13:43,957 --> 00:13:46,695
You got to make it with that young pussy
before it turns into Mom.
225
00:13:51,757 --> 00:13:53,181
She's chatting him up,
226
00:13:53,258 --> 00:13:55,704
maybe he's thinking
she looks old enough to wear this outfit,
227
00:13:55,781 --> 00:13:59,359
twirl a baton, march in the band, probably
got some hair on her, but not too much.
228
00:13:59,681 --> 00:14:01,082
Let's take a break.
229
00:14:01,266 --> 00:14:03,460
- You need a break, Gene?
- Um...
230
00:14:04,478 --> 00:14:07,547
- No, I'm okay.
- Well, I need a break.
231
00:14:08,774 --> 00:14:11,261
I am gravely concerned
with this line of questioning.
232
00:14:11,338 --> 00:14:12,951
I told you, you need to relax.
233
00:14:13,028 --> 00:14:15,746
If it came out in court we suggested
the girl flirted with him...
234
00:14:15,823 --> 00:14:17,851
- How would it come out?
- He turned off the tape.
235
00:14:17,928 --> 00:14:19,309
Yeah, I saw that.
236
00:14:19,451 --> 00:14:21,478
I don't know about that, either.
237
00:14:21,787 --> 00:14:23,211
You agree with this?
238
00:14:23,288 --> 00:14:25,690
In theory. Not so much in practice.
239
00:14:26,083 --> 00:14:29,611
I will take full responsibility
for what happens in there.
240
00:14:37,553 --> 00:14:39,915
Most people
would call it a cherry picker,
241
00:14:39,992 --> 00:14:43,210
but the industry term would be
a boom lift or a boom truck.
242
00:14:43,287 --> 00:14:46,755
- What's the highest you've been?
- About 50 feet.
243
00:14:46,832 --> 00:14:48,528
- In a tree?
- That's right.
244
00:14:48,605 --> 00:14:51,760
- But you're in a harness, right?
- Well, of course, at that height.
245
00:14:51,837 --> 00:14:55,911
But sometimes you got to get out
to get them faraway limbs.
246
00:14:55,988 --> 00:14:58,767
- Don't look down, huh?
- No, that don't bother me no more.
247
00:14:58,844 --> 00:15:00,916
You saw Lisa waving to you
a couple of times.
248
00:15:00,993 --> 00:15:02,980
Must not have been too far up to see that.
249
00:15:03,057 --> 00:15:04,440
No, I'm not too sure.
250
00:15:04,517 --> 00:15:06,815
- She ever talk to you?
- No.
251
00:15:07,416 --> 00:15:09,109
But I already told you that.
252
00:15:09,293 --> 00:15:11,343
Hmm. Okay.
253
00:15:11,420 --> 00:15:12,740
Why?
254
00:15:13,714 --> 00:15:16,449
We have one person,
said she saw the two of you talking.
255
00:15:16,717 --> 00:15:20,873
- Well, I thought I was your star witness.
- Only one watching the street.
256
00:15:20,950 --> 00:15:22,833
Listen, you're a good-looking guy.
257
00:15:22,910 --> 00:15:25,315
Did she just come up to you,
being friendly?
258
00:15:25,392 --> 00:15:28,589
She sees you up there every day,
sweating away in the hot sun.
259
00:15:28,666 --> 00:15:31,006
Could she have maybe offered you a soda?
260
00:15:33,817 --> 00:15:36,595
She could've come up and talked to me.
261
00:15:36,862 --> 00:15:38,263
Can you remember?
262
00:15:39,531 --> 00:15:41,727
- I guess.
- It's coming back to you.
263
00:15:41,804 --> 00:15:44,480
Just that... she could've talked to me.
264
00:15:44,557 --> 00:15:45,896
What did she say?
265
00:15:46,246 --> 00:15:48,148
- I don't know.
- You don't?
266
00:15:48,749 --> 00:15:50,819
- No.
- No idea at all?
267
00:15:50,896 --> 00:15:52,360
You weren't listening?
268
00:15:54,004 --> 00:15:55,470
I can't recall.
269
00:15:55,547 --> 00:15:58,200
She ask you about your work,
your day, where you live?
270
00:15:59,009 --> 00:16:00,412
Something like that.
271
00:16:00,489 --> 00:16:01,912
Small talk.
272
00:16:02,137 --> 00:16:03,537
Sure.
273
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,208
I bet she thought
you were a handsome cuss.
274
00:16:07,017 --> 00:16:08,150
I don't know.
275
00:16:08,227 --> 00:16:10,003
You think she was pretty?
276
00:16:12,689 --> 00:16:15,508
We've already established
she looked at least 14.
277
00:16:19,488 --> 00:16:21,975
- I guess I thought so.
- You thought what?
278
00:16:22,052 --> 00:16:24,643
- That she was cute.
- She was precocious, too.
279
00:16:24,827 --> 00:16:27,145
Didn't mind that you were older.
280
00:16:27,496 --> 00:16:29,439
She probably kind of liked it.
281
00:16:29,998 --> 00:16:32,632
Yeah. I kind of thought she was into me.
282
00:16:32,690 --> 00:16:36,510
When your job ended and you weren't
on that street, you still think about her?
283
00:16:36,570 --> 00:16:38,492
- No.
- You ever go back by the house,
284
00:16:38,569 --> 00:16:40,700
see if she wanted to talk some more?
285
00:16:40,926 --> 00:16:42,871
I mean, she started things, right?
286
00:16:42,948 --> 00:16:44,287
Kind of.
287
00:16:47,599 --> 00:16:49,584
What about this jacket?
288
00:16:52,813 --> 00:16:54,589
You ever see her wear this?
289
00:16:57,067 --> 00:16:58,843
Here, take a closer look.
290
00:17:08,745 --> 00:17:11,731
When you picked her up from the bus,
was she wearing this jacket?
291
00:17:14,251 --> 00:17:16,154
There was a lot of blood
at the crime scene.
292
00:17:16,231 --> 00:17:19,449
We haven't revealed too many details,
but Lisa's skull was crushed.
293
00:17:19,526 --> 00:17:21,491
That blood goes everywhere.
294
00:17:21,884 --> 00:17:25,873
In crimes involving blunt force trauma,
it's almost impossible for the attacker
295
00:17:25,950 --> 00:17:28,333
to avoid getting his victim's blood
on him.
296
00:17:28,410 --> 00:17:30,627
The scalp has thousands of capillaries.
297
00:17:30,704 --> 00:17:33,046
Blood sprays everywhere, like a fine mist.
298
00:17:33,123 --> 00:17:35,570
It gets in your hair, up your nose.
299
00:17:35,647 --> 00:17:37,781
I'd be amazed
if you didn't get any on you.
300
00:17:37,858 --> 00:17:40,018
- He's washed.
- What's under your fingernails?
301
00:17:40,089 --> 00:17:42,514
- It's just dirt, Bill.
- We should take a sample.
302
00:17:42,591 --> 00:17:44,766
- He scrubbed his nails by now.
- Is it in your ears?
303
00:17:44,843 --> 00:17:47,207
I bet. When was the last time
you cleaned your ears?
304
00:17:47,284 --> 00:17:49,771
- You want to take a sample?
- Can we do that?
305
00:17:49,848 --> 00:17:51,771
Yeah. I can arrange that.
306
00:17:57,544 --> 00:17:59,177
You've gone quiet.
307
00:17:59,254 --> 00:18:01,096
When we accuse somebody of murder,
308
00:18:01,173 --> 00:18:02,895
if they haven't done it,
they won't shut up.
309
00:18:02,953 --> 00:18:04,119
They protest their innocence.
310
00:18:04,196 --> 00:18:06,872
Oh, God, yeah. "How dare you?
Fuck you. I know my rights."
311
00:18:06,949 --> 00:18:09,855
A guilty guy will clam up,
start listening intently,
312
00:18:09,932 --> 00:18:11,043
which is what you're doing.
313
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:13,670
If a guilty guy yells
to make you think he's innocent,
314
00:18:13,747 --> 00:18:16,796
- you can always tell the difference.
- Sure can.
315
00:18:17,356 --> 00:18:19,364
Why do you keep looking at that rock?
316
00:18:19,441 --> 00:18:22,260
An innocent man would have
to guess its significance.
317
00:18:22,611 --> 00:18:25,140
It's what was used to kill Lisa,
wasn't it?
318
00:18:25,217 --> 00:18:27,015
When things got out of hand.
319
00:18:27,824 --> 00:18:29,541
You didn't mean to, right?
320
00:18:29,618 --> 00:18:33,271
She came up to you, she seemed friendly,
and then everything went sideways.
321
00:18:33,789 --> 00:18:37,194
The question for us isn't "Did you do it?"
We know that you did it.
322
00:18:37,271 --> 00:18:39,110
The question for us is...
323
00:18:39,378 --> 00:18:40,778
"Why?"
324
00:18:41,380 --> 00:18:45,033
We think we know why, and we understand.
325
00:18:46,843 --> 00:18:49,245
All you have to do is tell us
if we're right.
326
00:19:03,318 --> 00:19:05,430
- Can you teach this stuff?
- We should.
327
00:19:05,507 --> 00:19:08,684
Bill, why are not we teaching profiling
at the Academy?
328
00:19:08,761 --> 00:19:11,625
Because we're still figuring it out.
329
00:19:11,702 --> 00:19:13,772
- You like this bourbon?
- Yeah.
330
00:19:13,849 --> 00:19:14,982
Two more.
331
00:19:15,059 --> 00:19:17,734
Now, what I can't get over is the rock.
332
00:19:17,811 --> 00:19:20,425
He could not control his reaction.
333
00:19:20,502 --> 00:19:22,531
- Everybody has a rock.
- What?
334
00:19:22,608 --> 00:19:24,408
Something that makes them sweat.
335
00:19:24,485 --> 00:19:27,349
Like, for example,
my senior year of college.
336
00:19:27,426 --> 00:19:30,414
I came home for Christmas, I'm sitting
at the kitchen table with my dad,
337
00:19:30,491 --> 00:19:33,248
and my mom brings over some eggnog.
338
00:19:34,099 --> 00:19:36,545
And she hands me a glass and she says,
339
00:19:36,622 --> 00:19:40,148
"Holden, have you had sexual relations
with a woman?"
340
00:19:40,206 --> 00:19:41,299
- Jesus, no.
- Yeah.
341
00:19:41,376 --> 00:19:44,908
And I say, "Uh, yeah, Mom, I have."
342
00:19:44,985 --> 00:19:46,763
And she says, "What's her name?"
343
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,515
And I say, "Well, actually, Mom,
there's been a few."
344
00:19:50,615 --> 00:19:52,374
Bottoms up.
345
00:19:52,451 --> 00:19:53,852
And then...
346
00:19:55,370 --> 00:19:58,648
Oh! And then she says, "Holden...
347
00:19:59,875 --> 00:20:01,862
who's going to have you
as a husband now?"
348
00:20:01,939 --> 00:20:03,321
I'm telling you,
349
00:20:03,398 --> 00:20:04,928
if she asked me that again today,
350
00:20:05,005 --> 00:20:07,659
the exact same thing would happen.
I would completely fall apart.
351
00:20:07,736 --> 00:20:09,451
She's your rock.
352
00:20:09,718 --> 00:20:11,184
Let's be clear.
353
00:20:11,261 --> 00:20:13,957
All he did was put the killer's
murder weapon in front of him.
354
00:20:14,034 --> 00:20:15,042
Bill, come on.
355
00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,962
We posited
that the killer might feel guilty.
356
00:20:19,039 --> 00:20:20,795
And then, I just...
357
00:20:21,521 --> 00:20:24,990
created a situation where the guilt
completely overwhelmed him.
358
00:20:25,067 --> 00:20:26,303
It wasn't guilt.
359
00:20:26,380 --> 00:20:29,953
It was the pucker of "Oh, shit,
I'm going to the electric chair."
360
00:20:30,030 --> 00:20:33,016
How'd you come up with this stuff?
361
00:20:33,742 --> 00:20:37,937
By interviewing Richard Speck,
and Jerry Brudos, and Ed Kemper.
362
00:20:39,039 --> 00:20:41,089
- You talked to them firsthand?
- Uh-huh.
363
00:20:41,166 --> 00:20:43,173
And we've got Manson and Berkowitz
on the wish list.
364
00:20:43,230 --> 00:20:44,259
No shit.
365
00:20:44,336 --> 00:20:46,406
- Unbelievable.
- What are they like?
366
00:20:46,483 --> 00:20:50,410
Well, I don't think I'm speaking
out of turn here when I say...
367
00:20:50,487 --> 00:20:53,935
they are fucked up.
368
00:20:54,012 --> 00:20:56,456
Amen.
369
00:20:59,184 --> 00:21:00,442
So what did you say to him?
370
00:21:00,519 --> 00:21:02,736
I got him talking about
how hot young girls are,
371
00:21:02,813 --> 00:21:04,382
how they look older than their age.
372
00:21:04,459 --> 00:21:06,259
- Ugh.
- But it was the net effect.
373
00:21:06,336 --> 00:21:08,491
I laid out everything she had on her,
374
00:21:08,568 --> 00:21:12,057
a portrait of the last day
in the life of a 12-year-old girl.
375
00:21:12,134 --> 00:21:14,807
So you staged it. Like a director.
376
00:21:14,991 --> 00:21:15,999
I guess.
377
00:21:16,076 --> 00:21:18,522
Only he didn't know
he was playing a role in your drama.
378
00:21:18,599 --> 00:21:20,587
That is what made it a nail-biter.
379
00:21:20,664 --> 00:21:23,110
No one could have scripted
the reveal of the rock.
380
00:21:23,187 --> 00:21:25,860
He completely freaked.
381
00:21:26,419 --> 00:21:28,365
You could suddenly smell BO in the room.
382
00:21:28,442 --> 00:21:30,532
- Pavlovian.
- Guilt.
383
00:21:31,007 --> 00:21:34,410
But you were convinced he was guilty
before you went in.
384
00:21:34,678 --> 00:21:36,331
Well, it was pretty obvious.
385
00:21:36,408 --> 00:21:39,207
Yes, but presupposed.
386
00:21:40,016 --> 00:21:41,775
Correctly presupposed.
387
00:21:41,852 --> 00:21:45,549
Is it a fair experiment if you're working
backward from a conclusion?
388
00:21:45,626 --> 00:21:47,467
If your theory is proven right.
389
00:21:47,544 --> 00:21:51,076
Holden, you drove him
to an emotional response.
390
00:21:51,153 --> 00:21:53,682
I helped put a child murderer behind bars.
391
00:21:53,759 --> 00:21:55,306
Like Perry Mason?
392
00:21:55,699 --> 00:21:59,227
- That's right.
- Only Perry Mason never got off on it.
393
00:22:00,036 --> 00:22:02,274
- Please stop analyzing me.
- I'm not analyzing you.
394
00:22:02,351 --> 00:22:04,192
You run this commentary
on everything I do.
395
00:22:04,269 --> 00:22:06,987
I was talking about your work.
That's how we communicate, right?
396
00:22:07,064 --> 00:22:09,344
You talk about your job,
I give my opinion.
397
00:22:09,421 --> 00:22:11,221
Maybe I don't always want your opinion.
398
00:22:11,298 --> 00:22:14,536
- When I'm not in agreement with you.
- Could you just be my girlfriend?
399
00:22:14,613 --> 00:22:16,119
Could you just listen?
400
00:22:17,387 --> 00:22:19,416
You mean shut up and adore you?
401
00:22:19,493 --> 00:22:22,417
Well, you could try it. Once.
402
00:22:51,630 --> 00:22:53,909
Making furniture
from human remains
403
00:22:53,986 --> 00:22:55,950
qualifies as organized.
404
00:22:56,259 --> 00:22:57,684
We're famous.
405
00:22:57,761 --> 00:23:00,747
This is apparently the talk
of the Atlanta office.
406
00:23:02,849 --> 00:23:04,836
"Darrell Gene Devier
cracks under the questioning
407
00:23:04,913 --> 00:23:06,317
of a new type of FBI agent."
408
00:23:06,394 --> 00:23:09,422
- Is that supposed to be us?
- Who the fuck do you think?
409
00:23:09,856 --> 00:23:11,281
Who's named?
410
00:23:11,358 --> 00:23:13,343
Read the part about, uh...
411
00:23:13,777 --> 00:23:17,745
"Behavioral Science's bright-eyed boy
who's friends with Ed Kemper."
412
00:23:17,822 --> 00:23:19,100
Who talked to a reporter?
413
00:23:19,177 --> 00:23:21,726
Probably
your baby-faced drinking buddy.
414
00:23:21,826 --> 00:23:24,439
That was in confidence
to a member of law enforcement.
415
00:23:24,516 --> 00:23:26,814
- While you were drunk.
- Celebrating.
416
00:23:27,248 --> 00:23:28,985
"Using evidence from the crime scene,
417
00:23:29,062 --> 00:23:31,947
he managed to break through
Devier's psychological barriers"?
418
00:23:32,024 --> 00:23:33,490
This reads a lot like coercion.
419
00:23:33,567 --> 00:23:35,823
Worse, it sounds like horseshit.
420
00:23:35,966 --> 00:23:37,661
Devier was in that interrogation room
421
00:23:37,738 --> 00:23:40,661
because trees were trimmed
on the victim's street.
422
00:23:40,769 --> 00:23:43,708
- Good old-fashioned detective work.
- That got him in the room.
423
00:23:43,785 --> 00:23:45,315
We got him to confess.
424
00:23:45,392 --> 00:23:49,420
- You cannot be proud of this.
- There's nothing egregious here.
425
00:23:49,854 --> 00:23:51,383
- Exposure could be good.
- No.
426
00:23:51,460 --> 00:23:54,302
Can we all agree we are not ready
for Good Morning America?
427
00:23:54,379 --> 00:23:55,700
I did not give an interview.
428
00:23:55,777 --> 00:23:57,764
Even if we were
accurately represented,
429
00:23:57,841 --> 00:24:00,684
people should not be reading about us
over breakfast.
430
00:24:00,761 --> 00:24:01,935
Why not?
431
00:24:02,012 --> 00:24:03,768
Just because.
432
00:24:03,994 --> 00:24:05,394
Bill...
433
00:24:08,248 --> 00:24:12,860
is it possible that you're upset
because the article doesn't mention you?
434
00:24:22,512 --> 00:24:26,856
Hi, Susan. It's Dr. Wendy Carr.
I need to book a flight tomorrow.
435
00:24:26,933 --> 00:24:29,546
I don't know what to do
short of putting a muzzle on him.
436
00:24:29,623 --> 00:24:31,047
Please don't go back to Boston.
437
00:24:31,124 --> 00:24:33,339
Atlanta. Out of Dulles.
438
00:24:33,523 --> 00:24:36,324
- The same day if possible.
- Why are you going to Atlanta?
439
00:24:36,401 --> 00:24:38,521
- I'm gonna talk to the Floyd County DA.
- About what?
440
00:24:38,590 --> 00:24:41,266
It's in the article,
they're prosecuting a capital case.
441
00:24:41,343 --> 00:24:44,374
- So?
- So we can't be seen to be party to that.
442
00:24:44,451 --> 00:24:47,147
I'm sorry. Yes, I am.
Can you give me that number again?
443
00:24:47,224 --> 00:24:49,274
What? That's none of our concern.
444
00:24:49,351 --> 00:24:50,505
It's mine.
445
00:24:50,582 --> 00:24:53,153
- He slaughtered a 12-year-old girl.
- I know what he did.
446
00:24:53,230 --> 00:24:55,677
Oh, uh, window or aisle, both are fine.
447
00:24:55,754 --> 00:24:58,950
- Georgia's a death penalty state.
- I think I might need a car, too.
448
00:24:59,027 --> 00:25:00,992
What are you going to say to them?
449
00:25:01,092 --> 00:25:04,060
We're four interviews in.
No one is gonna talk to us
450
00:25:04,137 --> 00:25:06,160
if they think we're sending people
to the electric chair.
451
00:25:06,218 --> 00:25:09,155
No one in law enforcement will talk to us
if they think we're squeamish
452
00:25:09,287 --> 00:25:11,129
about executing rapists and murderers.
453
00:25:11,206 --> 00:25:14,028
Oh, that sounds lovely.
A convertible or a T-top.
454
00:25:14,105 --> 00:25:15,884
You cannot go representing the FBI.
455
00:25:15,961 --> 00:25:17,126
I don't intend to.
456
00:25:17,220 --> 00:25:19,471
They won't understand
how you're connected to this case.
457
00:25:19,548 --> 00:25:23,725
If you don't see how this situation
compromises us, I don't know what to say.
458
00:25:23,802 --> 00:25:26,624
I'm sorry. I'm... I'm so distracted.
459
00:25:26,701 --> 00:25:28,980
Can you give me that number
one more time?
460
00:25:29,057 --> 00:25:30,395
Go with her.
461
00:25:30,538 --> 00:25:32,190
You got us into this.
462
00:25:33,583 --> 00:25:35,651
Shut the door.
463
00:25:37,170 --> 00:25:38,988
I got it this time. Thank you.
464
00:25:53,269 --> 00:25:56,797
Follow my lead.
I'm used to talking to law enforcement.
465
00:25:59,818 --> 00:26:03,223
District Attorney Mayweather, thank you
for meeting with us on such short notice.
466
00:26:03,300 --> 00:26:08,017
Oh, Esther, please. I am delighted to meet
the man who delivered me Gene Devier.
467
00:26:08,743 --> 00:26:10,186
My pleasure.
468
00:26:10,286 --> 00:26:12,295
Professor Carr's a consultant at the FBI
469
00:26:12,372 --> 00:26:14,651
and she has been instrumental
in developing a program...
470
00:26:14,728 --> 00:26:17,570
I'm sorry. I have as long as it takes
to finish this sandwich.
471
00:26:17,647 --> 00:26:22,013
We have been interviewing extremely
violent offenders. The worst of the worst.
472
00:26:22,090 --> 00:26:24,515
This involves establishing
an element of trust
473
00:26:24,592 --> 00:26:27,203
so that they offer information
to us voluntarily.
474
00:26:27,303 --> 00:26:31,230
We try to be objective
because what they have to say is valuable.
475
00:26:31,307 --> 00:26:34,420
But if they see that our techniques
are being used to eradicate them, then...
476
00:26:34,497 --> 00:26:37,588
Now how would your techniques
be used for that?
477
00:26:37,730 --> 00:26:42,053
Agent Ford assembled a psychological
sketch of Mr. Devier, based on research,
478
00:26:42,130 --> 00:26:44,430
which was used to secure a confession.
479
00:26:44,507 --> 00:26:47,183
So if he's convicted and executed, then...
480
00:26:47,260 --> 00:26:50,309
Honey, we don't kill criminals.
481
00:26:50,535 --> 00:26:52,443
They kill themselves.
482
00:26:52,537 --> 00:26:53,606
What does that mean?
483
00:26:53,683 --> 00:26:56,506
It's their behavior
that puts them in that chair.
484
00:26:56,583 --> 00:26:57,610
Actually, I think it's...
485
00:26:57,687 --> 00:27:01,030
When I talk to a jury,
I always ask, "Do you watch TV?"
486
00:27:01,107 --> 00:27:02,220
Most of them do.
487
00:27:02,297 --> 00:27:04,865
I say, "Who watches the cop shows?"
488
00:27:05,300 --> 00:27:08,329
Right there you know whether
you've got a smart jury or a stupid one.
489
00:27:08,406 --> 00:27:10,144
So I say, "Forget TV,
490
00:27:10,221 --> 00:27:12,939
'cause it'll never show you
the experience of the victim."
491
00:27:13,016 --> 00:27:14,627
- No.
- "You will never hear the cries
492
00:27:14,704 --> 00:27:18,170
of a woman being raped
on The Rockford Files.
493
00:27:18,313 --> 00:27:22,824
You won't smell burning flesh
from the cigarettes being put to her body
494
00:27:22,901 --> 00:27:26,472
- on Hawaii Five-O."
- I'm not arguing prosecution strategies.
495
00:27:26,549 --> 00:27:29,223
- I'm simply...
- And I'm not done talking.
496
00:27:29,782 --> 00:27:33,438
My point is that when you go
from an abstract idea of murder
497
00:27:33,515 --> 00:27:35,294
to the visceral reality,
498
00:27:35,371 --> 00:27:37,713
you can no longer be objective.
499
00:27:37,790 --> 00:27:40,820
Only when you feel the pain
of those victims and their loved ones
500
00:27:40,897 --> 00:27:44,262
can you know the magnitude
of the choice that killer made.
501
00:27:44,339 --> 00:27:48,328
- And it's that choice that seals his fate.
- There's no reason to kill people
502
00:27:48,405 --> 00:27:50,601
when we have the wherewithal
to lock them up.
503
00:27:50,678 --> 00:27:53,688
These people spend the rest of their lives
in horrendous conditions,
504
00:27:53,765 --> 00:27:56,336
which likely reflect the environments
in which they were raised.
505
00:27:56,413 --> 00:28:00,006
Maybe... I'm sorry. But maybe instead
of debating the pros and cons of...
506
00:28:00,083 --> 00:28:02,864
Yes, cut to the point.
507
00:28:02,941 --> 00:28:05,929
Are you actually asking me
to shoot lower than capital punishment
508
00:28:06,006 --> 00:28:08,888
so it won't reflect poorly on the FBI?
509
00:28:09,614 --> 00:28:13,934
Not the FBI,
our work in Behavioral Science.
510
00:28:14,369 --> 00:28:16,002
If it's compromised,
511
00:28:16,079 --> 00:28:18,691
I'm afraid we won't be able to achieve
our ultimate goal,
512
00:28:18,768 --> 00:28:23,361
which is to hopefully prevent
this type of crime from being committed.
513
00:28:24,546 --> 00:28:29,867
I am asking you to consider
life without the possibility of parole.
514
00:28:35,139 --> 00:28:37,166
I'm an elected official.
515
00:28:37,308 --> 00:28:40,151
Here in Georgia,
death is the will of the people.
516
00:28:40,228 --> 00:28:42,507
And if you don't want
to be involved publicly,
517
00:28:42,584 --> 00:28:45,508
then maybe you should keep yourselves
out of the news.
518
00:29:08,214 --> 00:29:09,367
What did you expect?
519
00:29:09,444 --> 00:29:11,117
A reasonable conversation.
520
00:29:13,022 --> 00:29:15,204
I don't know what I expected. I...
521
00:29:16,472 --> 00:29:19,083
I've spent months of my life and...
522
00:29:20,643 --> 00:29:22,589
I had hoped that we could
complete our research
523
00:29:22,666 --> 00:29:25,675
- before seeing it used to this end.
- What difference would that make?
524
00:29:25,752 --> 00:29:28,094
I wouldn't have to be in meetings
like the one we had.
525
00:29:28,171 --> 00:29:29,846
So you could walk away clean?
526
00:29:29,923 --> 00:29:32,847
Come on, Wendy. You're smarter than that.
527
00:29:33,698 --> 00:29:35,307
Evidently not.
528
00:29:37,493 --> 00:29:41,105
There's no way around the death penalty
in death penalty states.
529
00:29:41,289 --> 00:29:44,108
Which doesn't mean
what we're doing is wrong.
530
00:30:06,856 --> 00:30:09,133
- Hi.
- Hi.
531
00:30:10,318 --> 00:30:11,927
It's so nice out.
532
00:30:13,029 --> 00:30:14,098
How was your trip?
533
00:30:14,175 --> 00:30:16,267
Hot. Sticky. Miserable.
534
00:30:16,344 --> 00:30:17,682
Georgia.
535
00:30:18,493 --> 00:30:20,418
- Have you eaten?
- No.
536
00:30:20,495 --> 00:30:22,688
Great. You want to get something?
537
00:30:24,457 --> 00:30:26,110
It's getting late, we should get going.
538
00:30:26,187 --> 00:30:28,110
No, I don't think so.
539
00:30:28,961 --> 00:30:30,361
Okay.
540
00:30:36,260 --> 00:30:37,660
Are you still mad?
541
00:30:38,554 --> 00:30:39,954
Are you...
542
00:30:40,348 --> 00:30:41,668
What exactly are you?
543
00:30:41,745 --> 00:30:43,793
Must I be something?
544
00:30:49,273 --> 00:30:52,301
These past couple days,
I keep thinking about when we met.
545
00:30:54,654 --> 00:30:55,973
You were so sweet.
546
00:30:56,050 --> 00:30:57,225
And curious.
547
00:30:57,302 --> 00:30:58,766
I'm still...
548
00:30:59,117 --> 00:31:00,517
curious.
549
00:31:00,785 --> 00:31:02,185
No.
550
00:31:02,745 --> 00:31:03,919
You're different.
551
00:31:03,996 --> 00:31:07,402
I am the exact same person
that you reeled in with that jumpsuit.
552
00:31:07,479 --> 00:31:09,110
I don't think that's true.
553
00:31:09,585 --> 00:31:11,570
But I'm not the same either.
554
00:31:11,921 --> 00:31:13,656
Where you going with this?
555
00:31:13,798 --> 00:31:15,827
Just... thinking, talking.
556
00:31:15,904 --> 00:31:17,743
Thinking about...?
557
00:31:19,178 --> 00:31:21,413
- I don't know.
- You don't know?
558
00:31:21,490 --> 00:31:22,521
I don't know.
559
00:31:23,223 --> 00:31:24,649
Jesus, Debbie. Come on.
560
00:31:24,726 --> 00:31:26,877
You're so good at reading people...
561
00:31:27,645 --> 00:31:29,045
you tell me.
562
00:31:33,609 --> 00:31:35,010
Okay.
563
00:31:35,486 --> 00:31:37,012
Well...
564
00:31:37,697 --> 00:31:40,349
when I first got here,
you didn't get up to greet me.
565
00:31:40,426 --> 00:31:44,103
And you didn't invite me inside,
but you won't come to dinner with me.
566
00:31:44,328 --> 00:31:46,149
You've been sitting
with your arms crossed,
567
00:31:46,226 --> 00:31:49,191
which I know, from you, is a bad sign.
568
00:31:49,917 --> 00:31:52,822
You've been in a shitty mood
the last ten times we've been together,
569
00:31:52,899 --> 00:31:54,741
and you're always starting arguments,
570
00:31:54,818 --> 00:31:57,848
and you've been assessing me
in a very negative light.
571
00:31:57,925 --> 00:32:00,351
And in spite of your recent confusion
about your degree,
572
00:32:00,428 --> 00:32:02,290
you stay up late every night
doing homework,
573
00:32:02,367 --> 00:32:04,331
leaving me to go to bed alone.
574
00:32:06,476 --> 00:32:08,609
When I got here,
you offered a sip of your wine,
575
00:32:08,686 --> 00:32:10,319
which could be construed as welcoming,
576
00:32:10,396 --> 00:32:12,556
but even though you knew
I was coming from the airport,
577
00:32:12,627 --> 00:32:14,383
you didn't bring an extra glass,
578
00:32:14,650 --> 00:32:16,594
and half the bottle is gone.
579
00:32:16,671 --> 00:32:21,974
Which means you're trying to take
the edge off so that you can...
580
00:32:24,994 --> 00:32:26,520
break up with me?
581
00:32:32,210 --> 00:32:34,028
Is that what I'm doing?
582
00:32:36,464 --> 00:32:39,491
Let's not drag this out.
I'll pick up my stuff next week.
583
00:32:40,259 --> 00:32:43,495
I'll let you know when,
in case you don't want to be here.
584
00:33:33,020 --> 00:33:34,382
Yes, ma'am.
585
00:33:34,459 --> 00:33:36,489
No, we're trying. It's slow.
586
00:33:36,566 --> 00:33:38,425
- Yes, indeed.
- You take this?
587
00:33:55,816 --> 00:33:58,406
California Medical Facility,
Vacaville. How may I help you?
588
00:33:58,483 --> 00:34:02,640
I got a message to call a Dr... Bruxton.
589
00:34:02,717 --> 00:34:05,619
- One moment, please.
- Did you see who put this here?
590
00:34:05,845 --> 00:34:07,705
I just got in myself.
591
00:34:07,878 --> 00:34:09,041
ICU.
592
00:34:09,118 --> 00:34:12,817
Hello, I'm trying to reach a Dr. Bruxton.
593
00:34:12,894 --> 00:34:15,381
I believe Dr. Bruxton is in surgery.
594
00:34:15,458 --> 00:34:19,218
Well... I have a message to return his...
595
00:34:19,295 --> 00:34:20,634
One moment.
596
00:34:29,785 --> 00:34:31,898
Dr. Bruxton isn't available right now.
597
00:34:31,975 --> 00:34:34,483
I'm with the FBI, my name is Holden Ford.
598
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,192
Oh, yes, he is expecting your call.
599
00:34:37,668 --> 00:34:39,530
Can you tell me what this is about?
600
00:34:39,607 --> 00:34:43,324
Uh, you're listed as medical proxy
to one of our patients.
601
00:34:46,135 --> 00:34:48,996
I'm sorry, there must be
some kind of mistake.
602
00:34:49,347 --> 00:34:53,500
I don't think so. Edmund Kemper
specifically named you as his proxy.
603
00:34:54,685 --> 00:34:57,212
At this point, though,
he is out of danger.
604
00:34:57,398 --> 00:34:58,445
Danger?
605
00:34:58,522 --> 00:35:01,759
Mr. Kemper tried to take
his own life last night.
606
00:35:03,569 --> 00:35:05,763
- Are you sure?
- Yes, sir.
607
00:35:05,947 --> 00:35:09,331
That's impossible.
I can't think that...
608
00:35:09,408 --> 00:35:11,771
Mr. Kemper came out of surgery
at 4:30 a.m.
609
00:35:11,848 --> 00:35:14,104
He's doing well, he's in recovery.
610
00:35:18,417 --> 00:35:20,217
- Hello?
- You need anything from me?
611
00:35:20,294 --> 00:35:22,821
- The doctor will call if we need anything.
- Okay.
612
00:35:28,135 --> 00:35:30,957
It seems
the Office of Professional Responsibility
613
00:35:31,034 --> 00:35:34,877
has found continuing evidence
for their investigation into our unit.
614
00:35:34,954 --> 00:35:36,295
"Continuing evidence"?
615
00:35:36,372 --> 00:35:38,045
They've got the tape.
616
00:35:38,980 --> 00:35:41,840
- How the hell'd they get that?
- I have no idea.
617
00:35:43,192 --> 00:35:45,846
But you three have been called
to meet with them.
618
00:35:45,923 --> 00:35:49,807
And since someone
has taken the high road for us,
619
00:35:50,616 --> 00:35:54,144
I recommend we all go forward
with total transparency.
620
00:36:05,089 --> 00:36:06,489
Is this you?
621
00:36:07,675 --> 00:36:09,243
Fuck you, Bill.
622
00:36:36,328 --> 00:36:37,898
Please state your name.
623
00:36:37,975 --> 00:36:39,964
Special Agent Holden Ford.
624
00:36:40,041 --> 00:36:43,610
In what capacity do you serve
the Federal Bureau of Investigation?
625
00:36:43,711 --> 00:36:46,113
I work in the Behavioral Science Unit.
626
00:36:46,464 --> 00:36:47,950
You and Special Agent William Tench
627
00:36:48,027 --> 00:36:50,599
recently interviewed an inmate
named Richard Speck?
628
00:36:50,676 --> 00:36:53,018
- That's right.
- Did you record the interview?
629
00:36:53,095 --> 00:36:55,291
- Yes.
- Which of you recorded the interview?
630
00:36:55,368 --> 00:36:56,706
I did.
631
00:36:56,932 --> 00:36:59,920
You and Agent Tench interviewed
several inmates over the past few months.
632
00:36:59,997 --> 00:37:02,048
- Did you record those, too?
- Yes.
633
00:37:02,125 --> 00:37:04,216
- Who did the recording?
- I did.
634
00:37:04,293 --> 00:37:05,593
For what purpose?
635
00:37:05,670 --> 00:37:08,492
Archival purposes, documentation.
636
00:37:08,569 --> 00:37:10,973
- Is this trying, Agent Ford?
- I'm sorry?
637
00:37:11,050 --> 00:37:13,392
Do you find this process trying?
638
00:37:13,469 --> 00:37:15,100
I find it unnecessary.
639
00:37:16,077 --> 00:37:19,440
What did you do with the recording
when you returned to Quantico?
640
00:37:19,517 --> 00:37:21,817
I gave it to Agent Smith to transcribe it.
641
00:37:21,894 --> 00:37:24,028
- Did he transcribe it?
- Yes.
642
00:37:24,105 --> 00:37:26,468
- And did you look it over?
- Yes.
643
00:37:26,545 --> 00:37:28,532
Did you then decide it should be redacted?
644
00:37:28,609 --> 00:37:29,763
Yes.
645
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:31,700
Why did you decide that?
646
00:37:31,842 --> 00:37:37,750
I felt there was a section that might be
deemed sensitive by other parties.
647
00:37:37,827 --> 00:37:40,336
"Other parties" meaning whom?
648
00:37:40,413 --> 00:37:42,526
Other people at the FBI.
649
00:37:42,603 --> 00:37:46,381
And people at the LEAA,
which provides our funding.
650
00:37:46,857 --> 00:37:48,365
What section was this?
651
00:37:48,442 --> 00:37:50,679
The section where I asked Speck
why he took
652
00:37:50,756 --> 00:37:53,996
"eight ripe cunts out of this world."
653
00:37:54,073 --> 00:37:56,268
You suddenly thought
that might not go over well.
654
00:37:56,345 --> 00:37:57,684
That's right.
655
00:37:58,536 --> 00:38:01,420
- Did anyone influence your decision?
- No.
656
00:38:01,497 --> 00:38:04,235
Your partner, Agent Tench.
Did he influence your decision?
657
00:38:04,312 --> 00:38:06,050
I made the decision on my own.
658
00:38:06,127 --> 00:38:09,156
What happened once you decided
this section was too sensitive
659
00:38:09,233 --> 00:38:10,929
to appear in the transcript?
660
00:38:11,006 --> 00:38:13,119
I asked Agent Smith to take it out.
661
00:38:13,196 --> 00:38:15,768
- Are you Agent Smith's supervisor?
- No.
662
00:38:15,845 --> 00:38:17,623
Who knew about the redaction
at this point?
663
00:38:17,700 --> 00:38:20,606
I knew, Agent Smith, and Agent Tench.
664
00:38:20,683 --> 00:38:23,609
When the three of you met with us
to discuss Speck's complaint,
665
00:38:23,686 --> 00:38:26,423
whose decision was it to bring us
only the redacted transcript?
666
00:38:26,500 --> 00:38:27,905
It was my decision.
667
00:38:27,982 --> 00:38:29,718
- An unspoken agreement?
- Yes.
668
00:38:29,795 --> 00:38:32,388
Did you ask Agent Smith
to lie about erasing the tape?
669
00:38:32,465 --> 00:38:35,099
- Not in so many words.
- What does that mean?
670
00:38:35,176 --> 00:38:36,663
I looked at him.
671
00:38:36,740 --> 00:38:39,184
I asked him to lie with my eyes.
672
00:38:40,369 --> 00:38:44,358
Did the redaction become known to other
people in the Behavioral Science Unit?
673
00:38:46,333 --> 00:38:49,780
- Is this amusing, Agent Ford?
- It might be, if it weren't so feeble.
674
00:38:49,857 --> 00:38:50,677
I beg your pardon?
675
00:38:50,754 --> 00:38:53,512
You think I don't know what you're doing
with this principal's office bullshit?
676
00:38:53,569 --> 00:38:56,871
This is what I do with violent offenders,
only much better.
677
00:38:56,948 --> 00:39:00,163
Agent Ford, you stand accused
of lying to the FBI.
678
00:39:00,389 --> 00:39:02,064
Do you realize how serious that is?
679
00:39:02,141 --> 00:39:05,192
You used your badge to gain access
to the California Medical Facility
680
00:39:05,269 --> 00:39:06,630
without any official approval.
681
00:39:06,707 --> 00:39:10,092
To interview our first subject, Kemper,
whose feedback launched our program.
682
00:39:10,169 --> 00:39:13,075
We're not concerned
with what you consider your achievements.
683
00:39:13,152 --> 00:39:14,408
We're concerned with your methods.
684
00:39:14,465 --> 00:39:17,746
The language used with Richard Speck
in the unredacted interview
685
00:39:17,823 --> 00:39:19,768
reflects extremely poorly on the Bureau.
686
00:39:19,845 --> 00:39:21,727
How about calling him a shit stain?
687
00:39:23,871 --> 00:39:27,441
- You see what I mean.
- Agent, listen to what we're telling you.
688
00:39:27,518 --> 00:39:31,879
Flashing your badge is one thing,
suppression of evidence is serious.
689
00:39:32,129 --> 00:39:34,756
You're developing a pattern of behavior
that will not sustain you.
690
00:39:34,819 --> 00:39:36,243
I just got back from Georgia,
691
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,954
where my behavior
led to the arrest and confession
692
00:39:39,031 --> 00:39:41,812
of a man who raped and murdered
a 12-year-old girl.
693
00:39:41,889 --> 00:39:43,500
Surely my partner told you about that.
694
00:39:43,577 --> 00:39:46,587
Your partner expressed reservations
about the way you handle yourself.
695
00:39:46,664 --> 00:39:48,130
You're playing us off each other.
696
00:39:48,207 --> 00:39:52,007
He substantiates our concerns
about your comportment as a federal agent.
697
00:39:52,084 --> 00:39:53,886
We have that on tape.
698
00:39:53,963 --> 00:39:55,385
Fuck this.
699
00:39:56,737 --> 00:39:59,056
If you leave, I can't help you.
700
00:39:59,657 --> 00:40:03,810
I have to write a report on this.
It will go down on your permanent record.
701
00:40:04,161 --> 00:40:05,856
You're making a terrible mistake.
702
00:40:05,933 --> 00:40:09,733
The only mistake I made
was ever doubting myself.
703
00:40:20,135 --> 00:40:21,745
What'd you tell them, Bill?
704
00:40:23,055 --> 00:40:24,748
I told them the truth.
705
00:40:24,890 --> 00:40:27,501
♪♪ Led Zeppelin's "In the Light" playing...
706
00:40:27,558 --> 00:40:31,108
♪♪
707
00:40:31,165 --> 00:40:34,671
♪♪
708
00:41:08,058 --> 00:41:10,796
Ladies and gentlemen,
we will be landing shortly.
709
00:41:25,993 --> 00:41:32,649
♪ And if you feel ♪
710
00:41:33,500 --> 00:41:34,901
Sign here.
711
00:41:37,421 --> 00:41:38,821
Thank you.
712
00:41:42,426 --> 00:41:49,106
♪ And your will's ♪
713
00:41:49,183 --> 00:41:51,585
♪ Sinking low ♪
714
00:41:59,777 --> 00:42:01,428
Edmund Kemper?
715
00:42:05,741 --> 00:42:07,142
Thank you.
716
00:42:11,914 --> 00:42:17,611
♪ In the light ♪
717
00:42:19,338 --> 00:42:22,701
♪ You will find the road ♪
718
00:42:22,778 --> 00:42:26,745
♪ You will find the road ♪
719
00:42:37,815 --> 00:42:39,216
You came.
720
00:42:39,483 --> 00:42:41,261
You made it hard not to.
721
00:42:41,338 --> 00:42:44,139
Well, I tried less dramatic methods.
722
00:42:44,216 --> 00:42:46,973
- Did you get my cards?
- Yes.
723
00:42:48,283 --> 00:42:52,103
Maybe it's not surprising
you respond to showmanship.
724
00:42:52,830 --> 00:42:55,816
Why do you want to see me, Ed?
725
00:42:57,376 --> 00:42:59,694
I read an article about you.
726
00:42:59,878 --> 00:43:02,179
About us, I should say.
727
00:43:02,256 --> 00:43:04,348
The Atlanta Constitution?
728
00:43:04,425 --> 00:43:07,035
The story was picked up by the AP.
729
00:43:07,845 --> 00:43:11,706
- Oh.
- You said we were friends.
730
00:43:15,978 --> 00:43:18,547
- Yes.
- Are we friends, Holden?
731
00:43:18,856 --> 00:43:22,678
In the context of our work together, sure.
732
00:43:22,755 --> 00:43:24,511
Our work together.
733
00:43:24,736 --> 00:43:28,932
That's a nice way of putting it.
I'd categorize it the same way.
734
00:43:30,617 --> 00:43:33,353
And yet, our work is unfinished.
735
00:43:33,454 --> 00:43:36,565
- Okay.
- As I indicated in my letters.
736
00:43:36,874 --> 00:43:38,692
You have more...
737
00:43:39,877 --> 00:43:41,196
insights?
738
00:43:41,273 --> 00:43:42,611
I do.
739
00:43:43,881 --> 00:43:47,140
Well, I'm not going to trot them out
like some kind of show pony,
740
00:43:47,217 --> 00:43:50,038
especially when you've been talking
about me in my absence,
741
00:43:50,115 --> 00:43:53,456
using what I tell you
to legitimize yourself.
742
00:43:53,682 --> 00:43:55,625
That story was not...
743
00:43:58,145 --> 00:44:01,756
I... had had a bit to drink.
744
00:44:02,191 --> 00:44:05,886
What's this behavioral profiling
you're touting?
745
00:44:06,778 --> 00:44:08,179
Well...
746
00:44:12,534 --> 00:44:15,877
it's a way to determine
a criminal's psychology
747
00:44:15,954 --> 00:44:19,318
based on crime scenes
and personal characteristics.
748
00:44:19,395 --> 00:44:21,318
I love that.
749
00:44:23,170 --> 00:44:25,262
What's my psychology?
750
00:44:25,339 --> 00:44:27,409
I can't really tell you that.
751
00:44:27,486 --> 00:44:29,328
You can't or you won't?
752
00:44:29,405 --> 00:44:33,121
- It's shoptalk, Ed.
- My favorite.
753
00:44:33,597 --> 00:44:35,542
We're at an early point in the research.
754
00:44:35,619 --> 00:44:39,151
Not so early that you can't babble
about it in the press.
755
00:44:39,228 --> 00:44:42,883
And you pretty much admit
that I started you down this path.
756
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:47,928
So... I believe you owe me
an explanation, Holden.
757
00:44:51,490 --> 00:44:54,144
You're what we'd call
an organized killer.
758
00:44:54,221 --> 00:44:55,685
Mm-hmm.
759
00:44:55,869 --> 00:44:59,064
Because of the extreme planning
that went into your crimes.
760
00:44:59,915 --> 00:45:02,152
You practiced picking up women
several times
761
00:45:02,229 --> 00:45:04,050
before selecting your first victim.
762
00:45:04,127 --> 00:45:05,322
You used your own vehicle
763
00:45:05,399 --> 00:45:08,114
both in the kidnapping
and disposing of the bodies.
764
00:45:08,507 --> 00:45:10,285
You followed your crimes in the media,
765
00:45:10,362 --> 00:45:14,037
which shows evidence
of continued fantasy.
766
00:45:14,805 --> 00:45:16,373
Mm-hmm.
767
00:45:18,433 --> 00:45:20,043
That's the gist.
768
00:45:20,143 --> 00:45:23,423
You think you can boil me down
to a single adjective?
769
00:45:23,500 --> 00:45:27,886
Of course not.
It's merely a way to sort characteristics.
770
00:45:27,963 --> 00:45:30,303
- You're an expert now.
- No.
771
00:45:30,487 --> 00:45:33,765
- Sounds like it.
- I am not an expert.
772
00:45:33,865 --> 00:45:36,351
But you want to be, don't you?
773
00:45:41,999 --> 00:45:43,608
Yes.
774
00:45:50,424 --> 00:45:53,368
Human blood is very hot.
775
00:45:53,468 --> 00:45:57,040
On a cold, humid morning
you can see it steam.
776
00:45:57,117 --> 00:45:58,897
What are you doing, Ed?
777
00:45:58,974 --> 00:46:01,837
Someone left a ballpoint pen
on my court file.
778
00:46:01,914 --> 00:46:04,170
I used the metal casing.
779
00:46:06,940 --> 00:46:09,092
Is this what you wanted to see?
780
00:46:10,068 --> 00:46:12,178
Why would I want to see that?
781
00:46:14,197 --> 00:46:16,307
Take a closer look.
782
00:46:21,913 --> 00:46:24,190
That's okay. Really.
783
00:46:28,337 --> 00:46:31,865
You know, women were initially
indifferent to me.
784
00:46:32,799 --> 00:46:35,452
They weren't interested in sharing.
785
00:46:36,845 --> 00:46:39,916
My whole life,
no one wanted to interact with me.
786
00:46:39,993 --> 00:46:43,209
Not even our cats, when I was a kid.
787
00:46:55,113 --> 00:47:00,393
The only way I could have those girls
was to kill them, and it worked.
788
00:47:00,494 --> 00:47:04,105
They became my spirit wives.
They're still with me.
789
00:47:07,751 --> 00:47:13,281
Funny thing in the ICU,
there's no system to alert the guards.
790
00:47:13,757 --> 00:47:17,952
It's short-sighted,
seeing what kind of people come through.
791
00:47:19,262 --> 00:47:22,290
I could kill you now, pretty easily.
792
00:47:22,974 --> 00:47:26,753
Do some interesting things
before anyone showed up.
793
00:47:28,313 --> 00:47:30,840
Then you'd be with me in spirit.
794
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,619
I invited you many times to visit,
795
00:47:36,696 --> 00:47:40,642
but even with this,
I never thought you'd actually come.
796
00:47:41,910 --> 00:47:44,312
Why are you here, Holden?
797
00:47:47,082 --> 00:47:48,483
I don't know.
798
00:47:51,795 --> 00:47:53,655
Well, now...
799
00:47:54,673 --> 00:47:56,326
that is the truth.
800
00:48:04,850 --> 00:48:07,585
♪♪ "In the Light" playing...
801
00:48:07,642 --> 00:48:11,131
♪♪
802
00:48:11,188 --> 00:48:14,381
♪♪
803
00:48:24,369 --> 00:48:27,337
- Are you all right?
- I can't breathe. I can't breathe.
804
00:48:27,414 --> 00:48:29,109
- Did you take anything?
- I don't know.
805
00:48:29,186 --> 00:48:31,651
- Do you have any allergies?
- I don't know.
806
00:48:32,169 --> 00:48:33,385
I'm dying.
807
00:48:33,462 --> 00:48:35,427
You're not dying.
You're in a hospital.
808
00:48:35,484 --> 00:48:36,720
I'm trying to warn you,
809
00:48:36,777 --> 00:48:38,723
your attitude
is gonna bite you in the ass.
810
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,349
You're developing a pattern
of behavior that will not sustain you.
811
00:48:41,406 --> 00:48:43,331
Not the gems
you think you're mining.
812
00:48:43,408 --> 00:48:44,998
Are we friends, Holden?
813
00:48:45,765 --> 00:48:47,584
Get a doctor here!
814
00:48:47,684 --> 00:48:49,357
Who are you,
the fucking thought police?
815
00:48:49,414 --> 00:48:50,630
Torture, mutilation.
816
00:48:50,707 --> 00:48:53,446
That is your world,
and it has made you paranoid.
817
00:48:53,523 --> 00:48:55,260
♪♪ "In the Light" continues playing...
818
00:48:55,337 --> 00:48:56,699
♪ Hey ♪
819
00:48:56,776 --> 00:49:02,122
♪ Oh, though the winds of change
May blow around you ♪
820
00:49:02,199 --> 00:49:05,310
♪ But that will always be so ♪
821
00:49:08,371 --> 00:49:10,064
♪ Oh ♪
822
00:49:10,248 --> 00:49:12,903
♪ Whoa-whoa, whoa-whoa ♪
823
00:49:12,980 --> 00:49:17,196
♪ When love is pain, it can devour you ♪
824
00:49:17,422 --> 00:49:20,950
♪ If you are never alone ♪
825
00:49:24,387 --> 00:49:26,998
♪ I would share your load ♪
826
00:49:28,517 --> 00:49:31,669
♪ I would share your load ♪
827
00:49:31,811 --> 00:49:33,713
♪ Baby, let me ♪
828
00:49:34,231 --> 00:49:37,300
♪ Oh, let me ♪
829
00:49:39,986 --> 00:49:43,139
♪ In the light ♪
830
00:49:46,326 --> 00:49:50,021
♪ Everybody needs the light ♪
831
00:49:50,288 --> 00:49:52,941
♪ Woo, yeah, yeah ♪
832
00:49:54,167 --> 00:49:56,569
♪ Ooh, baby ♪
833
00:49:56,962 --> 00:49:59,656
♪ In the light, in the light ♪
834
00:49:59,756 --> 00:50:01,574
♪ In the light ♪
835
00:50:30,203 --> 00:50:32,983
♪ Light, light, light ♪
836
00:50:33,060 --> 00:50:35,608
♪ In the light ♪
837
00:50:37,586 --> 00:50:40,532
♪ Light, light, light ♪
838
00:50:40,609 --> 00:50:42,991
♪ In the light ♪
839
00:50:43,341 --> 00:50:44,951
♪ Ooh, yeah ♪
840
00:50:45,176 --> 00:50:48,164
♪ Light, light, light ♪
841
00:50:48,241 --> 00:50:50,498
♪ In the light ♪
842
00:51:15,498 --> 00:51:18,320
♪ Light, light, light ♪
843
00:51:18,397 --> 00:51:20,695
♪ In the light ♪
844
00:51:22,964 --> 00:51:25,869
♪ Light, light, light ♪
845
00:51:25,946 --> 00:51:28,202
♪ In the light ♪
846
00:51:28,511 --> 00:51:30,498
♪ Ooh, yeah, yeah ♪
847
00:51:30,575 --> 00:51:33,335
♪ Light, light, light ♪
848
00:51:33,412 --> 00:51:35,608
♪ In the light ♪
849
00:51:35,685 --> 00:51:38,504
♪ Everybody, come on ♪